Ravi Gurumurthy: [00:00:00] hello and welcome. This event is the fifth in our series on the making the switch to cleaner greener homes. And today this type of our events with devolve to evolve. What role should local communities play in decarbonizing? And my name is Ravi. I'm the chief executive of Nesta. Nesta is the innovation agency of the social.

Good well, we've set for your machines in our strategy. One of which is about the sustainable future, which is really all about we compromising households in our main areas. So this is a very interesting issue for us. We've got four speakers who are going to come from quite different perspectives. So I'll introduce in a second.

Let me to set a little bit about the actual it's not yet. I spent a long time in my career. Um, focusing on climate change, I was involved [00:01:00] in shaping the climate change act about 15 years ago, and then responsible for trying to think about how the UK meets its carbon reduction targets. And it's striking how 10 years ago, if you'd have talked about the role of local authorities who would have probably not spent much time, um, on that question, it was a very national issue.

And the climate change act with responsibilities were really the national governments and various agencies. I think now there's a much bigger question about communities, local governments and more action. And that's what we want to try and get into today with us to discuss this. We've got Laura Sandys who is the CEO of challenging ideas to Chad, the Bay's editor today.

Thanks Laura. And as a net energy systems, We have, um, Chaitanya Kumar, who's the head of environment and green transition at the new economics foundation. We have Louise Marix Evans. Who's the director of quantum strategy and technology. And we have Luke Murphy. Who's the [00:02:00] head of the environmental justice commission and the associate director for energy climates, housing and infrastructure at the Institute for public policy research.

So a great, welcome to our speakers. What we're going to do today is, um, I'm going to kick off with two or three questions for the panel. Um, we'll then, um, go to your questions that you're posting either in the comments box by YouTube or LinkedIn, um, and we'll bring the speakers in on them. So do feel free to post questions at any point during the, during the conversation.

So let me start with the first provocation, um, which is really about how the UK. The UK is heat and building strategic strategy. That's was launched, had relatively little to say about the role of local governments and community organizations in decarbonizing homes. Is this an oversight? To what extent is home?

De-carbonization going to be driven by local action. And what role should local [00:03:00] actors before? So, uh, let me go to Laura to kickoff.

Laura Sandys: Thanks, Ravi. Well, I think we start to get into the heat debate. We start to really what I would call the rubber hits the road when it comes to customers, when it comes to location.

And I will say location, location, location, when it comes to heat. And we're going to have to look at lots of differentials within localities as well. But, you know, if you're in a, in a block of flats, that's a different tension solution to those people who are in more suburban areas. And so in many ways, um, I think that there should be a very significant impact and participation by local authorities, um, at the cash goat, we're doing the local energy, um, plans, full local localities, which actually then starts to help zone areas.

Um, and then also put something that sometimes local action doesn't quite capture in [00:04:00] that. Customer choice. I mean, these aren't things that we can just impose on people. And so we need to zone areas according to what sort of heat strategy as possible, and then engage human beings, which the energy sector is not so great at, in actually those solutions.

So, um, we definitely need locality specific solutions, but that's not to say that we don't need national government and we don't need, um, a very strong coordinating role, which is actually supporting local authorities.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you very much, Laura. Um, Chaitanya.

Chaitanya Kumar: Great. Thanks Ravi. Um, I think, I think you would like that they didn't bring stressful to us miss out on or. Um, it certainly does talk about the importance that doesn't give much steer guidance or direction [00:05:00] on what politics could be doing. Um, I like the orchestra to have a very key role to play. Um, some of the reasons why we often talk about like all the closer to the better place to be whole retrofitting, um, uh, specificity is the notion that they understand the constituents is data.

You understand, you know, who box is, is, is, is closer to or other aspects of the demographic, but they're in charge of, uh, which leads to, you know, solutions, better targeting support. As we seen currently with some of the customer of crisis questions on how do we, it support measures. There's a key question that , and the same will apply on you for retrofitting points as well.

I think your key, um, and then that doesn't get talked about that much, uh, in terms of. Yeah, it's hard to, we actually capture the benefits and regain the benefits. Cause we talk a lot about the macro benefits and retrofitting beauty tasks, public health in Jackson, look, supply chains, [00:06:00] GVA, internet nature.

Um, how do we ensure that a lot of that is captured at the local level, at the community level? So the benefits of scaling up regifting are actually fed by people in that community. I think that's a key question. We haven't really cracked that largely because we just haven't achieved kind of scale that we need to, uh, on retrofitting and local , uh, local institutions, basically having to have a key role to play there as well.

And just looking at some of the schemes that you've, um, seen so far, I think, uh, the landscape or the local ecology delivery scheme that as in chronic, the last couple of years, I think it's a good example, um, of off of scheme that has seen some success, uh, albeit you know, cumulative effect of, uh, what the scheme is.

Julian . It's, you know, stood Annapolis still a minimum, but it doesn't give an indication of what local authorities could be doing. And the same applies to the other schemes of chess, the energy company [00:07:00] obligation, which is at this moment in time, perhaps the only main policy that we've gone with some significant funding from the national covenant on retro fatigue and increasing chakra, that scheme is being devoted to look at the targets to try and manage.

I think the last I checked was about 45%. Um, but , but obviously acknowledging that local authorities have a very important role, uh, in, in retrofitting and we are out more and more funding for that to happen. Um, I mean, just think of example, like a basket to the examples in a bit, but there are tons of examples.

Um, I only point, uh, business bureaus to a digital map that the UK green building council put together of, of key interventions and programs and look without using combined parties. Uh, undertaking in the UK. It's definitely worth this lots of schemes organically come up above and beyond the national policy driven schemes.

Received.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you very much. [00:08:00] Um, Louise, what's your perspective?

Louise Marix Evans: Yeah, I think, I think the, to answer your question, is this an oversight, the sort of list missing out that local action? Yeah, I think it is. I think that that community or local based piece is really important to establish norms. It's not normal to do retrofit and to establish a sort of market demand in a particular area that's appropriate.

Like Laura was saying that's appropriate to that area or that housing type and the tenure. Um, and it needs to reflect what the plans for the local energy system are going to be. Is it going to be a district heating? Is it going to be on hydrogen or are we looking at, uh, heat pumps in the main, and if we get that sort of a glomeration locally, we build much more cost-effective options.

And we critically like, uh, Chaitanya was just saying, we build that local supply chain and we keep that value and that skill local. So I think, [00:09:00] um, Doing things with people in local area. Again, makes this feel more empowered than seeing it as an individual action. That's a really big issue that we might need to even need to tackle.

Um, but we do need that national stability to sort of provide that policy that, that overarching, um, that builds that study market. And we'll come on to local area, energy planning. Um, and I think we overestimate in a way what the council role is. They've got a stronger role on rental property in social housing and council houses, but very little influence over owner-occupiers.

And the reason I'm sat here in a big coat is actually on an away day with people powered retrofit, which is, um, a new scheme, um, based in greater Manchester to owner-occupiers and providing the end to end retrofit service and building a local market and local supply chain that makes it easier for people to act so.[00:10:00]

Yeah, I think the local is critical and the strong national local link is vital.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you. Great. And finally,

Luke Murphy: thanks very much. Yeah. I think we're all in danger of a vigorous agreement between all of us. Cause I agree with everything that's been said. And I think the three reasons one is I think if you step back and ask the question slightly different, cause I think slightly differently because we always seem to ask, you know, how much of this we, we should, we, should we devolve when you think about the net zero debate, as Laura was saying where the rubber hits the road, where we're moving from de-carbonizing in the background to, you know, potentially the most invasive aspect of de-carbonization that is going to touch on people's lives.

And we've got to be carbonized 23 million, 23 million homes in England. And the vast majority of them will need some work. Is it sensible to try and coordinate that from one department from Whitehall? I mean, I think obviously the answer is no, and therefore it is a huge oversight within the HEOR building strategy.

Um, [00:11:00] and, um, so that's the first point. And that also relates to what the public one, which is my second point, which is the work we did as part of the environmental justice commission IPPR which Laura was one of the co-chairs of, you know, we held forces and the juries across the country asking what the public wanted and what they thought a fair approach to the transition looked like.

And as Louise mentioned, and Chaitanya mentioned as well, and Laura, you know, they told us they wanted more control. They want more agency and involvement in this transition. Now this clearly cannot be delayed. Why, what white hall it has to be and can only be delivered by organizations that sit within and also know their communities.

You know, in the words of our tees, rally jurors, one size fits all approach. Isn't going to work in the words of our south Wales jurors. They said more decisions should be made at a local level and the uniqueness of each place should be recognized in the decision-making. Um, and so, so that's the kind of second reason.

And the third is just as chatty said, um, [00:12:00] actually practically some of the best examples of this happening has been at the local level. The local authority delivery scheme has been progressing really well in Wales, a combination of the area based scheme, our beds and also our kind of national advice service in nest, but generally considered.

Uh, you know, more successful, for example, in reaching out to fuel or home say, um, you know, in answer to the question, yes, it's an oversight, but I would, um, uh, we need a much greater role for local authorities, but I would also agree with what others have said is that. Negate the need for a strong driving standards and strategy and some coordination at the national level.

But you know, we have to see greater evolution in this area. If we're going to make the progress at the speed that we want, and also ensure that it's a process that involves the public and is ultimately fair as well.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Can I just push you? They loop on you. You said that's a one size fits all approach.

Can't be, will be delivered. You can't do this from, from white horse, but why can't you? Because in some ways [00:13:00] a national government puts in place its subsidies and taxes to try and incentivize heat pumps for instance, or retrofitting, and then consumers can either utilize those or not, or, or, or work with their energy companies to, um, to, to, to get retrofits done.

So why does it really need a collective action or even a role for local governments? Why can we just leave it to retailers, energy companies in that.

Luke Murphy: I think it's already been mentioned that one of the key roles as, as others have said, is this kind of, this, this notion of kind of heat zoning and mapping an area and understanding the different types of houses and the different areas.

And actually the solutions will be different in different areas. In some areas it's heat pumps in some areas is going to be heat networks and others. That will be a small role of hydrogen, uh, as well, uh, in some limited areas. And I think the only way in which you can actually, the only body that is able to do that kind of coordinating role, uh, is local authorities.

Now that doesn't mean that obviously the weather, one of the other things that I do has said it's got to, it's got [00:14:00] to be a whole economy, whole society to be approach. Clearly it's probably local authorities in isolation, either. It has to be national government. It has to be business. Innovating providing the finance and delivering on the ground.

So it's not local. So like yes, there is a huge role for the market. Absolutely. As, just as the rest of the state. Um, but we would argue that there needs to be a much bigger role for the property, for both the national state and actually the local statement than there is at the moment. Um, uh, so yeah, I don't, I don't think those two things immediately, but I don't, I it's not that you couldn't deliver it without local authorities, I think, you know, but can you deliver it at the pace we needs?

Uh, can you deliver one that's fair? Can you deliver it in a way which empowers deeper than usual that people feel like they have agency and control about local authorities? I would say needs.

Laura Sandys: Yes, no. I mean, I just wanted to sort of reiterate what Luke was saying, but also, I mean, we've got examples of [00:15:00] this. I mean, whether it be Manchester, um, London, who all starting this coordination role, bringing everybody together, bringing the key players together and working out what the pathway is. I think that when you stop to having sort of represented a very, in a very small local authority in Kent, um, I would say that they might not have the capability.

And actually as a result, maybe there are sort of whether it be counties and cities that actually start doing this coordination, working with their local authorities. Um, but this does need coordination. And if you think, I mean, sort of counties and cities, they coordinate our transport system, which offers you optionality.

Whether you want to, you know, jump on a bus or where you've got a Metro or there's a tram system. And that is in some ways the suits of conducting. The, uh, local [00:16:00] authorities can clay, but to fill into the space that they create clowning and the overall strategy, there really needs to be new business models that actually understand human beings and choice that needs to be, um, as you rightly say about supply chains need to be built up.

And we also need both local authorities and national authorities to set standards and enforcement. We all now moving into people's homes and they will be, you know, mess ups in people's homes. They need redress, they need trust and they need confidence. And that is something that both national level and local trading standards will have to be engaged.

Ravi Gurumurthy: So I think we're violently agreeing on the need to, um, evolve and have more capacity at a level below the national government, but can we now get into, um, what power and capacity is needed and [00:17:00] also at what level, because this is where I think there might be legitimate disagreements. Um, and Laura, you indicated that maybe cities and city regions might be the right appropriate level rather than smaller local authorities.

And I think there's a strong argument actually for, for that, for other reasons, for instance, if you're thinking about the future of the electricity grid and how much to invest in the national grid or the distribution network, that's actually something which is often at a regional level really, rather than they very local level.

So where should, where should we devolve power to, should we be thinking about combined authorities regions or should we be going much, much more local.

Laura Sandys: I'll follow up on that. I mean, the point about the coordination is I think that does need to be as a little higher than sort of average local authority that doesn't need to say that the local authority isn't there determining strategy for that particular area, but the capabilities [00:18:00] and the skills, and to be Frank, that coordination job is going to be needed just as a little bit bigger than that locality area.

Um, to be Frank, I would like want to see people involved, not just local parties and in many ways really get to community. Rather than institutions. Um, but I see frequently sort of particularly county councils working very closely with them, the girl thirties, and it's about that partnership, but I think the skills have to sit, um, will be probably easier to sit at a sorts of county stroke city, regional authority level.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Yeah, I think there is this tension isn't there between, as you say, the need for skills and capacity to set probably at a higher level, given how scarce they are and also the need for planning often to happen at that high level, but also the desire to actually be more, um, engaging with [00:19:00] communities, which often involves going more down to neighborhoods and localities to Tanya.

I'm sure you thought about this given

are you more on the ultra local side of this?

Chaitanya Kumar: Yes, I think given, given, uh, necessarily, and that's legacy, we are all about community, about the building and how do we, how do we sort of at your, um, the social value of capital is it's, um, uh, exposure for, um, there'll be working, um, at this very moment combined apology.

Uh, just thinking to some of the options on water, uh, retrofit strategy might look like that is largely driven by combining poultry. And we know invest very much greater Manchester, for example, as how are we thinking about this quite actively, uh, lots of, lots of issues to be caught with one that really comes up, uh, consistently, which in normal sort of right at the end is the point about skills.

[00:20:00] Um, I think, um, case in point would be, you know, uh, getting supplies. To get past to past pretty 35 standard, which is the split, this trademark standard that you basically want all your suppliers, if it can meet and effort, Gaber the retrofit insulation measure and whatever you do, a Southern standard and the key barriers that supply of sand at this point, what is cost of course, but jellies are the technical technicalities behind, beyond the top makes it quite difficult.

So is they're all to have staff combined laundry that acts on behalf of torches and allows suppliers will come in and remove some of those barriers potentially and allow a lot more suppliers into the knowledge to deal with the supply control skills crunch. Um, and so the zoom onto that, uh, one thing we've argued quite recently published on leveling up, or people came on, leveling up, investors fits into that.

Um, we would want to make the case of [00:21:00] footage of all when the adult education budget, uh, some month or two is to have that. But I think we could go further and do more than that. That's what the lifelong learning landscape that exists that we do want as well. That is clear understanding the apprenticeship levy scheme that we've got opiod it's called some issues already, but there's also an underspend that demolishing that again, a command culture is to essentially

And like I said, removing some of those areas for local suppliers, I think is quite quite key. And the final thing on other skills, B there's there's also obviously a key need is to scale up local apprenticeships and job guarantee schemes. I think if you can think about skills broadly in the context of the fact that every job I want to be at VIN job, uh, you know, the, by the time we didn't that Sarah, how you can come out, the widest gets back to not just focused on retrofit, but thinking about the larger economy as well.

And therefore questions [00:22:00] are looking at metrics. Jobs can be skillsets. I didn't even become quite critical. And how do we target them and to private troops, those, you know, we're finding it difficult to sort of access training one and look at the income challenges that we do, or whether aware of a lot of workers.

Am I losing our livelihood? Go get trained elsewhere. These are all challenges that applied to the retrofit sector or the construction sector in general, but also the wider economy. So therefore, you know, we need to have a more holistic approach to zoom out approach looking, not just at retrofit, the wider low-carbon

Ravi Gurumurthy: economy as well.

Thank you. Um, Louise, what's your take on what needs to happen? It's. Um,

Louise Marix Evans: this is why I spent 2020 thinking about, um, so yeah, please just read my reports on that committee on climate change one and one called powers. It's called power shift. We analyzed what powers local authorities have and don't have, and where some of the key gaps are and how [00:23:00] to get to net zero.

And that picked up on buildings. And actually, I just referred back to that. Um, there's a big gap around local area, energy planning. It's not something anyone in planning or development planning does local authorities. Aren't able to plan ahead on that kind of infrastructure, investment and align that with the district net.

Distribution network organizations. Um, and then a bunch of them are constrained by off German, by by market, uh, problems as well. So we've got the sort of, we need to bring that local area, energy planning involving people into planning, and then have it in the planning system with skilled planners who know how to say to a big housing developer, this is the area energy plan for this area.

You've got to build to it. And we come back to viability, which is the big thing that cripples everybody from building new build to decent stuff. That aligned with net zero and they're going to slow. [00:24:00]

Ravi Gurumurthy: Can I just jump in and ask you about local area energy planning and just bring it to life for us in terms of how that could work?

Because one can imagine, you know, some analysis done on local housing stock and why, but how does it then actually translate into action?

Louise Marix Evans: Well, roughly, because we've got local area energy plans, they've been trialed by energy systems, catapult and CSC. We did the methodology for really good ones. We've seen them being done in Scotland.

They're a bit different, the local heat and energy efficiency strategies. And they aligned to the energy efficiency program heaps, which is like the sort of Welsh one Luke mentioned. It's good and it links national and local. So they're bringing housing and energy together. The, we kind of got, uh, an approach to sort of piloting local area energy plans in different ways, using different methodologies.

And then. Sort of sit there. They're kind of useful, useful. Stockport tried, they heat them up their area. They said [00:25:00] here's where you'd install renewables. Here's where you might do something else, but they could, they could never really leverage it because it didn't sit within the planning system properly in a recognized way.

So that's a big gap and a big problem that needs tackling. Um, so we ha what do they mean? What do they mean to a real planner is a thing I'd ask. And what do they mean to someone having a retrofit program? Uh, project done so they could, they could sit too high and be too theoretical with some housing stock survey.

Or they could start translating into action. As we see in Bristol with Bristol city leap and the big investment to bring in a lot of money and a lot of action and link that into district heating and housing retrofits, it's starting to come to life there, but they're running ahead of national policy. So coming on to, I think something we'll discuss later, which is what the risks are.

You're kind of going into risky territory. Cause you might be running ahead of a decision that might swamp you later. [00:26:00] And certainly in Leeds, they've, they've been sort of going, oh, are we going to go ahead? And are we going to end up missing sailing too early? And then another policy kind of swamping us, meaning we're stranding assets or stranding customers in a way we shouldn't.

So it is really, really complicated and I'm not very clear communicator. One of the other things I think should be really strongly devolved. Is, uh, the ability to have much better EPBCS, uh, much more, um, monitoring and control over them and, uh, landlord registration, a lot more work around the rent, private rental sector, where we see some really poor quality housing.

So, and I think we need to bring together the energy efficiency and the heat piece. Cause we, we see a lot of one trick organizations just put in a heat. Just to see Alation, just do that. And we're talking about a really complex project on every house and we have to have [00:27:00] really good service designed to lead the homeowner or the tenant through that process in a people centered way, which is what we're trying to do through really good service design to, to overcome not just the financial barriers, but the kind of information barriers of being really given really complex information about what retrofit might mean or what heat de-carbonization might look like.

And you've got all these suppliers telling you something different. So what's the homeowner to do so having that independence, that of approach and some really good assessment of the houses is also needed. Sorry, too much to talk about. I'll shut up.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you, Luke.

Luke Murphy: Thanks. I mean, I think a lot of the points already be made.

So I think that the thing I would say is just. Depending on the area, like each area needs the right amount of capacity, resources, and leadership. And actually, you know, I don't necessarily always have to be completely dogmatic about kind of exact, [00:28:00] exactly the level of, if not least, because some local authorities at different levels will have more resources and capacity to do this and others and will have greater desire and leadership to do it.

So actually there isn't a volunteer. Although Louis has identified. One of the challenges is that doing it at different levels will allow certain amounts of innovation, um, uh, which can then, then be rolled out elsewhere. Um, I agree with chatty that actually doing it in a way that ensures that as much as possible, the benefits accrue to local communities and local people, um, is, is definitely desirable.

But, um, it might even, I think he might look differently in different, um, different yeah, in different places. So I don't think we necessarily have to be dogmatic exactly what level, um, uh, albeit you know, that there is a, there is some kind of, um, benefit to a kind of consistent evolution framework, but it, you know, he could still allow some flexibility in different places to, you know, because some areas, [00:29:00] um, yeah, it will depend on some areas, leadership and desire to do some of these things.

So, um, yeah, I think it's, um, uh, it w it will, it will depend on the.

Ravi Gurumurthy: But do you see Luke, um, areas able to make a go of this just to sort of soft power and leadership and convening, or do they actually formal harder lever to actually drive this forward?

Luke Murphy: I think there's definitely a role for convening. You know, you could argue that, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the London mayor has got, uh, a housing, um, a retrofit, uh, some, uh, upcoming, and, you know, the very act of bringing together local authorities, housing associations, financial organizations, and funders can kind of, you know, can, can, can help and absolutely ensure the right conversations are happening, ensuring that we share the different organizations, et cetera, sharing information, and helping kind of convene and coordinate in a way [00:30:00] that can kind of hopefully catalyze.

Uh, you know, uh, progress, um, that being said, it is quite often useful if that is then underpinned by, uh, the ability to kind of make things happen. Um, either Sue kind of either legal powers or, or having additional resources and budget to kind of, to, to, um, to, uh, co-fund uh, elements. And I think so, yes, convening has a role, but it can always be added to, so having kind of, you know, additional capacity and resources at whatever level.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Okay, great. Does anyone want to say more about almost what specifically they see, um, local governments doing in terms of the powers or leavers that they, that they need? And, and how much, how much, um, sort of change to existing institutions does that require? So for instance, I'm worried that, um, distribution network operators will always have an interest in, um, building [00:31:00] more wires, which actually undermines the, the, the need and the case for doing demand side response.

Um, so if you're in that situation, uh, do you not need to have some ability to, uh, control the degree of investment that happened through those, um, DNOs which local governments doesn't currently have? So what actual formal powers do we really need? Louise you're sort of violently

Louise Marix Evans: disagree, violently disagree, do the, that.

I think district work, um, distribution network operators spend a lot of time trying not to invest in their wires. Uh, So I'm thinking about electricity Northwest. Um, they probably kicked me under the table if we were in the same room, but they they're thinking about how they can align the net zero target that of greater Manchester.

And obviously they are across a bigger area with Cumbria and other bits and bobs Lancashire. Um, the looking at how to do things more [00:32:00] smartly, how to introduce flexibility, how to, um, But there's a pro program about developing a local energy market. So we've got, they're much more interested in balancing and constraining and what they can do to play with that flexibility, to avoid having to dig up wires and shove yet more in, um, and to build resilience into the, into the network as well.

I mean, we saw with storm storm or when massive power outages, which are unusual, but they were, they're already thinking about those more, um, constrained areas and how they could build in storage. That that means they could palate areas that are cut off. So I think that potentially a really good partner in.

In a smarter local energy market, which picks up heat and transport decarbonisation, but they're kind of constrained by the, um, annual plant, you know, uh, Rio, whatever that means that that's sort of three or four year business plans and they have to spend [00:33:00] ages on that and then get it approved by off gem.

They don't align with the gas network, who've got different sort of planning cycles. Um, so I think something to sort of shake them all up and align them nicely. So everyone's working through a national sort of pathway to what's net zero. That's aligned for what's appropriate in the local area that still fair that still got customer protection and has got that environmental justice piece in.

And that aligns to what's planned for buildings. It all needs kind of triangulating together. And I think we almost saw the beginning of how that could start happening and then a net zero strategy with local, the local net zero forum. But we haven't seen that formed yet, and we don't know who else is on it, whether it's just local authorities or when get some of those off gem thinkers in there.

So, yeah, I think, I think we need to see some quite fast innovation aloud, um, and try this out in practice, not just theories, [00:34:00]

Ravi Gurumurthy: Laura, did you want to come in?

Laura Sandys: Yes. Now I sort of just coming back a little bit to Luke's point about what, um, responsibilities in some ways local authorities should have, I mean, Sometimes, I think everybody, including our regulators don't realize that there's something called net zero in legislation.

I, this is in local guys, you know, wakey, wakey, everybody, local authorities absolutely required responsibilities. And there needs to be timelines on where they're getting to, in terms of their planning, um, as do the regulators as do the companies who are involved, um, in the energy sector. So let's have that in some ways, very high level, but accountability that sits with national government, then that responsibility sits with, with local governments to deliver.

And they will always, I totally agree with Luke, they'll always be fast runners and then they will be the slower [00:35:00] guys and also some areas that will actually require some really difficult work, which isn't quite the same as, you know, a sort of suburban. But also picking up on, on your point about, um, networks and how you do planning.

One of the things that we haven't really, um, looked at, I mean, I think is going to be introduced is to be really geeky, is this localized, uh, Moodle pricing, localized pricing that's coming in potentially for the DNAs and that local authorities could use a very localized constraints, pricing, search, pricing, et cetera, to actually unlock that locality either to, from a demand side.

So we ended up with, you know, more exciting consumer propositions that help with demand or a supply side, because what they say is actually we need more [00:36:00] generation in this. And that takes a much more textured understanding of how the market can work in that locality, that anybody either sitting at Def jam or, um, or at national government, it requires skills and it requires capabilities.

And that's why, um, through some reports I did with Imperial college, we talked about local optimizers who actually have no financial interest in the area, but actually pull on demand, supply constraints and optimize their locality, utilizing sometimes industry because the industry has got a lot of ways to teach, et cetera, et cetera.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you. Let me ask one final question of the panel and I'm going to come and see the questions that are coming through the chat. So do, um, stick, stick them in. Um, as my final question for the panel really is about the risks. So what do you see as, [00:37:00] um, the main risks of pushing for more devolution of power to, um, localities over this agenda?

Um, who wants to jump in, um, Luke, why don't you come in as I've joined many last, most of time?

Luke Murphy: I mean, I think some of them have already been mentioned them. And I guess there's the, there's the capacity issue, which I think is already, you mentioned like, you know, we, we do need to ensure that, uh, we're not just kind of devolving responsibility, but that resources and capacity being there at the local level, um, which is something that's kind of a common theme across a lot of forms of, of, of government policies.

So that's the first thing. The second of all is to ensure that any kind of devolution doesn't lead to kind of confusion amongst consumers, you know, consumers are, uh, and, and households are time pressed then necessarily have a huge amount of time to embed. So invest in these things. So actually there is an argument for common consistency in standards.

I know [00:38:00] Louise Louise earlier was saying about kind of. If an EPC ratings in different areas. I, I think that's something to explore and I, I can see, um, some benefit to that, but I will say, be concerned about, do you have different, very different regulations across different local areas? It could potentially become confusing for consumers.

And then I would say that any kind of evolution needs to be supported by very clear information. From government, you know, we argued in our condition for a kind of, you know, really care communications campaign, a nationally funded scheme for consumers, but with a locally led kind of rollout, uh, for, for, for, for delivery.

So capacity as one potential confusion for, um, uh, uh, uh, consumers, the other. And then lastly, I would guess, um, is, is something else that's also been mentioned is, is the local authorities, you know, th th the, the lifeguards, uh, and there will be some, and there will be some that will be resistant to do it for whatever reasons, because they have other [00:39:00] priorities.

Um, but that's always a risk with evolution. And, um, one of the advantages that you'll have some that will go much faster, which is why you do need our kind of national backstop. I think, to kind of with, with, with clear legal targets for when. And buy, but then local authorities can make decisions about how best, uh, these things are delivered in their, in their local area.

So I guess those are just three of three of the things, I guess, one final thing, which was something we've called for, uh, is a kind of single hub within government provide support, but local authorities that want to do this, uh, local, a local level as well.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you. Um, Louise, did you really call for different,

Louise Marix Evans: sorry, I wasn't doing that on say that.

I think what I was saying was that we need, um, we need best, uh, best for approach to coming up with EPC. Cause you can drive a cart and horse through it. So at the moment, you know, you can, you [00:40:00] can do one, one day and it's a B, and then two days later you could do it again. It'd be a D. Say more rigorous, I think.

And I think it's being reviewed actually, um, APCs at the moment. So I wasn't calling on, um, different ones in different areas or a different standard. Um, I think, I do think, um, there needs to be maybe more, more devolution of the ability to, to monitor those things though. Um, you know, so that you aren't renting houses out at substandard and that, that those trigger points, someone in the local authority can come in and inspect.

Um, but, but that's getting, yeah, uh, kind of just clarifying on, um, I've I did write a list of some of the risks of a locally led approach, um, which was one of the mousse you go in and you invest massively in something and it costs more because it you're doing it first. And then you've got a [00:41:00] risk of, if you, if you do something.

If you devolve without the guidance or the framework that sits around in nationally, you could end up putting something in the, either disadvantages. The household is a customers living there, but then you, you could end up with a risk of a stranded assets and that's sort of what holds us back, but back from acting, um, you've also got a risk of going too early and a very efficient, um, new market entrance taking over and sort of swamping you.

So you, you go fast, you buy the wrong thing like Betamax versus VHS. Um, and you're risking people's property values. You're risking, um, quite a lot if you get these things wrong, I think so. That's why we do need a decent plan that gives a firm policy that's clear at the national level and then enough to evolution to, to deliver, but in an agreed way where they've discussed it together.

Having that devolution dumped on [00:42:00] you without the capacity or without the kind of direction, but the direction has to be agreed with the local and national, not just dictated by the national. And I think that's what we often see, and that's why we get substantive policy. Um, that's not done to a highest, the highest quality standards either.

We kind of go for the low bar, like being a member of Trustmark instead of something that's a really high, high quality, um, thing that we want. This that's managed locally. Um, But, but there were ways of, you know, we can mitigate those risks by, by working together and by learning what's what's going well at the moment.

So how is Bristol going to guess on how are some of the pilots doing, and then having a feed button loop, we often see pilots and then we never hear about, and then again, what did they do? What did we learn? Getting that feedback loop, feeding into policy, honestly, without just abandoning things. We're good at abandoning things.

And in this country had green homes grant, whoops. That didn't work. We've binned it. [00:43:00] We should have adjusted it because you know it at the basis of something good. Um, so yeah, so it's more about the way you do the evolution then? Uh, as well as the, what you devolve.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thanks.

Luke Murphy: Um, I think just building on the point,

Chaitanya Kumar: there was as many come on the costs, suddenly it is an issue. Um, last week we just haven't seen scale, uh, being achieved anywhere. Um, no part of the country has events. It's doing retrofit at scale, but it's there for seeing the benefits of economies of scale and cost functions as a solvent and, and yeah, and that we all see the supply chain, et cetera.

So I think cost therefore is, is, uh, the key challenge, but can be overcome if you achieve some of the scale that you need, but

Luke Murphy: do sort of think about

Chaitanya Kumar: it differently. If, if you deemed as issue the climate crisis, uh, an emergency as a lot of people that local [00:44:00] economies have, uh, uh, basically passed motions states.

Then perhaps we can accept some deadweight associated with its apps. We can throw some money at things that might go to waste. Uh, but ultimately we might get sued in production and in touch with carbon emissions in much faster bits. Um, I'd be interested in that industry. That's what we've done. And I suppose in, in, in the quarter crisis, we didn't Chuck a lot of money cause we knew we were dealing with an emergency here now and, uh, without drawing too many parallels between that and climate change, that's one animal that might be worth exploring a bit further.

So cost is an issue, no doubt, but perhaps that is manager in chucking money at this because we know it's a crisis, but, um, on the points you've, uh, touch on in terms of mitigation, uh, of, of the risks and challenges, just three points to and Luke were spoken of one is on the potential for. Combined with politics to act [00:45:00] as aggregators.

Um, seeing some examples, uh, and trials, uh, as we speak in London, there's an example that the green finance Institute is funding recorders sort of aggregate demand from different housing types and pull it up to mom and you offer a bulk purchase at about a quarter, hopefully would recuse some of the costs associated with integration and vendor fatigue, et cetera.

So the notion of demand aggregation, I think is quite interesting. Um, there's also, uh, that's a mitigating effect on, on costs or higher costs. There's lots of the point about local contractors getting past the past 3 35 standard and accreditation. Our, you mentioned that before. I think there's a lot of, uh, work that local talk from combinatorics could be doing that.

And the final thing is, um, it does support Fjord. Uh, we haven't spoken much about it, but there is certainly a role for, uh, procurement practices at the local torture level of commoditization. Where we could, um, can drive up, get a lot of, sort of [00:46:00] lunch data and the cost reductions that we need to sit here and mitigate some of the risks often locally to get a coach.

Uh, as I mentioned before, we were working in south Yorkshire and honestly, which the look we taught you that is trying out, what's called dynamic procurement, uh, systems and GPS. Um, that's an interesting model it's been successful and try and it out in terms of pure and suppliers, a list of sort of pool of local suppliers that can deliver the standard that we know.

I think that's, that's a model that needs to be scaled up. Uh,

Ravi Gurumurthy: great. Thanks finally, Laura, any risks and how can we meet.

Laura Sandys: Very quickly, everyone has covered off so much, but I think there is one thing and that is we mustn't, um, mistake the fact that people don't like things being done to them. And sometimes that is as much an accusation against local authorities as at central authorities.

So, um, it's absolutely crucial, [00:47:00] you know, you, you've got in some instances, places that you might call carry on council and you would not trust them to be the intermediary to your decision-making. So I think that's really, really important that it's communities and people, not just institutions, one little solution, um, which I know Luke and I've talked about many times and is being really pushed in Northern Ireland.

And that is that. Town would have a one-stop shop, which would be set up, um, with absolute common information, uh, pathways for consumers, understanding exactly what their rights are, what the opportunity is and what that options are. And I think if that came from an independent voice, um, funded by central government, you would actually start to deliver a little bit more consumer, um, activity and an action, which will be absolutely [00:48:00] counter some of those more, um, aggressive and sort of top-down, even though it's a local authority onto, uh, people's choices.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Great. Let's go to, um, the questions that are coming in and funnily enough, following on what Laura said, there's a few in there about community ownership. So one from Emily Mason about what are the best ways to get people and communities involved. And I think it's a particular interesting question with regards to.

Energy and climate change because, um, some of this is quite technical in nature, particularly when you get into energy planning. So I'd be interested in anyone's examples actually, of, of where they've seen this done well. Um, and, uh, and any, any thoughts on, on what localities can do to improve that? Um, I don't know who wants to come in, um, come on, perhaps, um, uh, ask, um, Louis to come in.[00:49:00]

Louise Marix Evans: It's quite broad. Community's involved. I'll take it from a retro. Well, I mean, we've seen citizens' juries and events like the green summit that we run in greater Manchester, which have got people in communities involved in the climate change, discussion more widely. And then the approach that just going back right down to the local level that we've taken with people powered retrofit is to take a.

We've we've mapped. We've mapped out certain areas of where people are more likely homeowners are more likely to take up retrofit measures and we using social marketing, uh, community-based marketing to get to those people. I'm actually not doing much marketing because we've got such demand anyway. But, um, the approach there is say, Luke has his house retrofitted.

He has a nice sign up like a little for sale sign saying I've had my hats retrofitted and then little Luke's neighbors go. Whoa, Luke, how was that? Looks interesting. That bill does seem really nice. Um, can we come round? We have a look, [00:50:00] we go, oh, blimey. This looks great. Let's do that. So you've got that peer to peer piece going.

And that's what they do in the states and lots of really successful, um, energy efficiency, schemes, very much area based. So I will listen to people like me. Um, and then I might, that might be backed up by my local authority. So Devon county council are starting to do a retrofits project, um, which we're supporting actually.

And so there'll be like the trusted partner sort of that they will make sure people are properly trained and that it's communicated, but then it will be delivered at a very local level by community energy organizations who have been trained in home retrofit planner. And then they will have supply chain engagement as well.

So they'll have reliable contractors to do the work. So again, it will be, it's not sort of one leaflet through the door. It's, it's involving people in, in different, different conversations. That's, I mean, that's just for retrofit, but. I [00:51:00] think another way to involve people. I think this, we go back to the future rules that we're kicking around a long time ago.

We don't scare the hell out of everybody without giving them agency. So talk about it, but then talk about what we can do collectively. And we come at it in different ways. We run a repair cafe and our village, we don't talk about climate change, particularly we repair stuff and then people start thinking about it.

And so there were different hooks. And so I think it's important to have that community engagement and in fact actually involve, and my society or people about to start a new project with local authorities on just that. Um, so I think it's, there's no point just doing it for the sake of it. Unless people have got some enabling measures, an agency to act.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you. Um, James notes asked, what do we mean by local communities? Um, specific geographies or other definitions? I think we are largely in this conversation talking geographically. Um, but it it's an interesting [00:52:00] question about what you can do with a particular segments like private renters. Um, Dave Ahlquist has asked, we have a network of some, 2000 community hubs in our membership buildings embedded in communities.

What do the panels see sees the potential role for these? If they could be coordinated.

Laura, do you want to jump in on the.

Laura Sandys: Yes. I mean, I think that, you know, they all sound really exciting. It sounds like a, uh, a sort of interesting national movement. Um, but I think that when you look at those community hubs, again, really picking up on Louise's point, you need to start with the public is not where you.

So the one to push them into. And so you've got to take them on the journey and as 2000 community hubs of I presume around the country, um, it's trialing some engagement opportunities and trying [00:53:00] trialing ways that work and finding out ways that don't work. I mean, most importantly is, were under a lot of time pressure when it comes to, uh, climate change requirements.

Um, I would say fail fast, um, but learn something from failing. So I would do three or four different pilots across your 2000. See how you can engage them and also bring them together. I think they will find that very powerful feeling that there was a national grouping that actually shared some of the same values.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Anyone else want to comment on that one?

Luke Murphy: I will quickly if that's all right. I mean, I think, you know, there's, there's that, that, that resource of, of, of having all those community ups can, can make a huge difference as, as Laura was saying. I think someone mentioned actually earlier in the chat in the comments, um, about swath and prior, which is a really great example of a community led, um, uh, organization that kind of is, is helping to deliver a really innovative, [00:54:00] um, uh, heat scheme.

And it's so clear and that's one of many, actually I'm gonna, um, share a report, um, in the private chat. Hopefully it can be posted in the, or sent around afterwards, around community climate action, which showed what can be done at a community level, uh, on food growing on all on the heat. Decarbonisation on energy efficiency on community renewables.

Now that's not going to be right in every community, but where areas wants to take that action. Um, and then w you know, they should be provided with the support and resources to be able to do that because they might be running ahead of their local authority, or indeed. Um, a national level. And I think that the point that we made there about how you communicate is really key.

The work we did looking at community climate action showed that in particular, in particularly in areas where they are, um, potentially more deprived, um, there, there are some of their motivations for getting involved was actually far more about reducing their energy bills, ensuring that they were living in warmer homes rather [00:55:00] than, uh, the climate action, the cut and the co-benefit, if you like was the opposite of what environmentalist often talk about was actually the emissions reductions.

But over time, they'd begun to see how what they're doing can reduce their energy bills and also help tackle climate change as well. So thinking about how you communicate with the public and communicate with the communities is really important and the really great, you know, advantage of community schemes like that is they often see, as chatty was talking about earlier, these benefits.

Uh, being, being accrued by the local community, uh, rather than by a distant, uh, distant supplier. And then just one other thing to, to kind of, um, uh, refer back to the other thing about engaging the public, you know, it, it was clear through the citizens' juries that we held, you know, we hope for cross country tees valley, Aberdeen, south Wales.

very different areas. The public do want to be engaged. They want more information about this. Not everyone is gonna have the time, uh, or the ability to engage fully or get involved in skis. That's [00:56:00] not, you know, there's going to be different levels for different, for what people want, but at a basic level, people want more information.

Um, they want to, you know, they want it, they want to understand more about what's available, what helps available, what changes they can make. Uh, and that could be through the one-stop shops that Laura mentioned. And then there's the next level of the kind of deliberation and engagement, uh, citizens' juries, which we think local authorities should be, you know, employing much more, um, broadly, um, uh, looking at different areas of the climate challenge.

And then that last area, which I've already mentioned, uh, which is much more in-depth involvement. So you kind of community run schemes, community led, housing schemes, uh, the things like swap and prime, which I mentioned as well. So it will be, it will be different, um, uh, different things for different people, but there are kind of a whole number of ways, which we can invoke the public.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Great. Thank you. Um, question Tom Lowe. Um, which is, is there a tension between the structure of a national energy retail market and the panel strong view in [00:57:00] favor of local decision-making and delivery of home upgrades? Louise. And your, um, during 2020, did you manage to crack this when you were figuring out all the roles, the roles that need to shift?

Louise Marix Evans: Yeah, there was a tension, um, because that market plows on doesn't it like we've seen with the gas, the gas price hike, um, and while the market signals are, are wrong at the moment and that the Levy's set on electricity, which has decarbonized so rapidly and gas is still so cheap again in inverted commas and very aware of fuel poverty.

Um, it's it, it's hard to say if somebody said, well, here's a local energy market, how that local market would operate in a big national market. It's a bit like a veggie box scheme competing against the supermarkets. Isn't it. So you, you know, does it become a sort of nice to have choice or do you have a sort of decent local [00:58:00] market and how do you have fairness?

Disincentivizes action. I mean, I could install a heat pump in my house, but my main big fear is that my electricity bill will shoot up through the roof. Um, so I'm on there. Don't know what's going to happen with that. And I'm not sort of living in fuel poverty, although I am freezing cold at the moment.

Um, so yeah, it's, it's a hard one to, to tie up. I didn't solve that, but I think it comes back to local area, energy planning and off gem, moving a lot faster and letting more innovation.

Laura Sandys: Um, I mean, I actually think the food analogy is I do love working in food. The food analogy is really quite interesting because I might get my base load as such from Tesco.

And there are other supermarkets out there if you wish. Um, and I might get my sort of premium vege from the farmer's market. Right. So what, I didn't think that [00:59:00] we should say that national retailers are going to preclude this locality based solutions. Um, and they will have to adapt to those as well. So I don't think it's an either war.

Uh, an and, and if what you do is create a community environment where you actually end up being able to totally self-generate for yourself, happiness, then you don't need to call on a national retailer, but I think we're going to see many more sort of blended local national responses. And I don't think we should be worried about that.

And I don't think it precludes, as I said, I don't think it's a zero sum game on that, on, on those

Ravi Gurumurthy: options. Alright, thank you. Um, the chassis, that's the

Chaitanya Kumar: very quick point. And then just looking at the existing measures that we are seeing in the UK on Netflix. The thing that the policy, I suppose, have contract meaning right now that is [01:00:00] led by retailers and suppliers.

Um, and it's, it's, it's got issues and all that, but, um, the way the targeting of that scheme has now been moved fuel homes a hundred percent. I think it was. And how we use retailers and suppliers to bring scale on retrofitting, I think is quite valuable to explore and exploited, I think a bit all, um, there is the tension on that, but, uh, it's, it's one motion you have, there will be policy you've got left back down that is dead in some measures, uh, at scale is they look by suppliers and retailers.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Great. Thank you. One question, um, from LinkedIn user, that's all I've got is there was some emphasis on skills and devolution in the government's level and leveling up white paper, but I was really surprised to see the absence of green skills and commitments connected to net zero. How should local authorities be supportive with local skills improvement plans to fill the, to fit the huge [01:01:00] retrofit skills gap?

And I know several of you touched on this during your opening comments as being a massive, um, constraints on progress. Um, again, I'm interested in your view. Any examples of local authorities getting it right. Um, but also what we can do to support local authorities who wants to jump in,

Laura Sandys: I'm happy just to say about bad experiences.

Um, so I remember, um, in Broadstairs that the local Effie college did a huge investment of the back of the green deal. Um, they put in huge amount of money and really excited the locality and really sort of set. They will get to become a green Effie college and then suddenly the green deal stops. Um, so there is a lot of anxiety when it comes to Effie colleges and the whole education sector about the [01:02:00] longevity of these sorts of schemes.

So I think that they absolutely need assurance that these schemes will be in place and that investment is getting to be the right, right. But why does skills when it comes to energy planning? Um, I think this absolutely should be a priority at university level, and I think we should be really turbo charging, um, all our education systems to be looking at net zero there's massive gaps.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Great. Um, I'm going to actually end by drawing out a question. There was a question in advance from Simon Brammer, which was also about how to ensure that local authorities and the communities they serve, have the resources they need from central governments to achieve all the aims that you've discussed.

Um, maybe I might just broaden it to, to ask every one of the panels to say, what's the one thing that they would suggest that essential government does right now, or other institutions in the center, [01:03:00] um, to, to actually, um, release power and, and actually catalyze more local action. Difficult final question.

Um, where should I start? Let's start with Luke.

Luke Murphy: Uh, I was very happy to go last that what I was going to, uh, you can just, uh, reversely agree with what everyone else has said and just have a couple of weeks. I mean, I think, I mean, be honest, this is probably the, kind of the most obvious point, but I, and it has been mentioned in various points, but increase the resource available to local authorities to actually, I mean, the, the budget for heat, heat and energy efficiency, uh, ed couplers and the edge and efficiency overall at a national level, isn't enough.

There will be a lot of money that needs to come from private finance initiatives as well. So the government needs to increase the overall budget. It needs to devolve it, and it needs to be done in the way, which means local authorities are not doing it. So you competitive bidding. Um, one of the, you know, local authorities [01:04:00] have to be given these resources to be able to yes, Target yes.

National framework. Uh, but these kinds of competitive bidding processes do not work. Uh, and we're seeing it across a whole range of areas and huge amounts of capacity are being spent by local authorities. Bidding for a place is fund bidding for a job I'm bidding for skills I'm bidding for housing de-carbonization fund.

All of that capacity should be turned towards actually delivering on the goals of the, that the, that these funds are there for. So increase the funding, the velvet, uh, and then, uh, make sure it's not competitive, but give local authorities, uh, uh, empower them to, to be able to deliver in their own way in ways which worked for the local communities.

I'm not sure whether that's one thing, but, uh, it's related to one thing, which is funding,

Ravi Gurumurthy: um, Louise.

Louise Marix Evans: Yeah. Building on, on what Luke said. Yeah. I mean, I said that the one thing I do is make it. That everything you do. And the local authority has to contribute to [01:05:00] net zero and well adopted. Um, but I mean, the LGA would shoot me for saying that because it would have to come with, with the funding to deliver that.

So, and, and it would need an act of parliament, but, um, Well, I'd say is building on what Luke said is let's get rid of the competitive and very short timeframe to delay, to develop that funding, which means it's often farmed out to people. So the skills don't stay in house. The government has understood that now.

So there's a bit more going in for capacity to develop, to develop proposals and plans and deliver them, but let's do it over longer time. So that that funding then creates a rotating, a fund or a business so that things become sell financing. So you don't just have to turn the top of government money pouring out to local that you can use it to set up much more sustainable business models.

That then draws in that private capital, which we know has got to come in and we know it's out there and everyone's going, oh, there's all this money. We've got new projects to put [01:06:00] it into. And the private capital needs to be a bit more creative about not waiting for really big, easy, simple de-risked projects.

They do it in the mortgage market. You've got a big can of money and it pours out to individuals. We now need that to be more flexible and an impact diges nationwide do it. They do a green home loan thing, but we need, we need to find, they need to innovate to get smaller amounts of money out to deliver these messy, difficult projects.

So, um, it's, it's not just on government and local authorities. It's, it's on the business sector to, to be a bit more creative as well.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you, chatty.

Chaitanya Kumar: So I suppose if I was in national government, I would be interested in putting out an open goal to any and every look, the country combined. Do you establish what others have touched upon the one-stop shop model?

Uh, it can be very different to different laboratories and [01:07:00] then needs some might be more interested in a more based model, realistic, the more persons convening, local authorities and others or others like greater Manchester that might be interested in doing everything in terms of retrofitting the homes of silence, uh, and with a commitment to actually fund, uh, in match funding, which you would call it, support the resources, uh, to help establish those one-stop shops.

I think they've proven to work in Southern parts of Europe, quite, uh, quite effectively. And I, there's no reason why don't until we can borrow some of those ideas in the UK as well. And some of the top use incumbents are doing that. So I try and double charge out the fallacies in Whitehall and establish those one-stop shops across the country.

Laura Sandys: I have very little to add of the great ideas and really, really like everyone's comments. Um, I do think we just need to get back to this net zero piece of legislation. And so there does need [01:08:00] to be responsibilities. Uh, the devolution part needs to have what I would call long-term. Um, how funding with key points of action, where there is accountability.

It does absolutely need to be funded, but we do need to ensure that the so-called lack guards that we can, I we're talking about, uh, rom to catch up. So timetable money, um, and obligations.

Ravi Gurumurthy: Thank you very much, um, to all the speakers, Chaitanya, Louise, Luke, Laura answered all the for, uh, for joining all the great questions and points in the, in the chats.

Um, please do take a moment to complete our short feedback survey, which were posted there and we will be sharing the recording and resources mentioned throughout the events, um, including, um, things that, uh, for instance, Louise mentioned that she'd written. Um, and, uh, if you do want to sort of join us, uh, future events, visit nesta.org.uk/events, and also follow the progress of the mission that [01:09:00] we're on all about trying to decarbonize UK homes.

This is a really big question for us about what we can do locally in how we get the right balance between local and national action. So really appreciate everyone's comments and thoughtful responses have very good day. And thanks for joining us.